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Rank: n00b
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Joined: 8/6/2009
Posts: 8
Location: USA
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Picked up a low mile zyphyr 550 and kind of liked the way it looks. It feels like it should be capable of decent handling as well-feels like a bicycle compared to my GS750... and being based on a gpz/kz550 ought be fairly robust...however I can't get over how much of a piece of crap it is...put on icon shocks, .85 straight rate springs at 10 wt oil in the fork...BT45s...seems to sag about right but doesnt hold a line very well.. ..and frankly it can't seem to hold a candle to my old stock 1977 GS550 in either handling or power. feels very lean and choked power wise. no one seems to sell a pipe for it either... rumor abound that the thing will not run well with k&ns in any case. can't figure out why it's so choked feeling compared to A 1981 GPZ...one nice thing is, it's got hella strong front brakes...even with fork oil contaminated pads it will pull the rear wheel off the ground...oh and imagine my surprise when I sprayed a little brake cleaner on them and watched the finish on the painted rather than anodized calipers slough off... and the clutch springs are like wet noodles and now the clutch with seeming little abuse makes a shrieking sound when i leave stops......so now that I have like 600 dollars in the thing... I hate to sound like i'm complaining...someone please convince me not to drop this thing of the front of an oil tanker on a long chain. how can it be made to handle and how can i get the ten horse power its down on from a GPZ?
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Rank: n00b
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/6/2009
Posts: 8
Location: USA
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ps, I sort of know some of these 'Momba " boys...heard that bike(the newer one) was making big power these days...hows that bein' done...in a nutshell?? i'd be happy with 50 hp...60 would be super neeto!
no need for 80-90...ya know
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Rank: MSF graduate
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/7/2008
Posts: 45
Location: Delaware Ohio
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I see you are here. You could email Azraphale directly to see if he'll tell you what to do. It'll be similar to what I told you on the Zone though. He's a bit slow on the reply. Look around, do a search here and maybe in the zone for my posts. I think I put his email to me on line at one of them.
Mark - klx678
Delaware Ohio
1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 550 mostly stock - if I wanted faster I'd have bought faster
1995 Kawasaki KLX650 with a big bore Vulcan piston 678cc, a pipe, and Dial-A-Jet
1978 Yamaha SR500 eventually to be a 60's style flattrack look street tracker
1967or so Bultaco M27 Sherpa T - first bike I bought, 1971.
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Rank: Administrator
Groups: Administration
Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 222
Location: Catskill Mtns.
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Can't say as I can sell you on anything in particular. Writing off a $600 bike because it has problems, and writing off the whole model beyond just the example you bought, are pretty short-sighted. What did you expect for $600? And perhaps a better question -- why didn't you check the bike out properly before you bought it? Seems to me that's what you should be mad about, as it sounds like all of the problems you are describing could have been caught well before you spent any money on this example, which seems to be in very poor repair. Also, any bike can be abused to the point where parts are knackered, so blaming the model line for being "bad" because you were incautious and bought a badly abused example is relatively ridiculous. As to holding a line, I would check for proper alignment of the forks and swingarm, proper chain adjustment, and throughly check the wheel bearings on both ends as well as the swingarm bearings and the steering head bearings. You are certain to find a problem in there somewhere. I'd also look at the state, brand and model of the tires, as crap tires, especially ones that have been abused, can also cause such problems. You may find problems in both areas. With the stock exhaust, you can't expect the power levels you are wanting to achieve on most dyno models. Whoever told you the bike runs poorly with individual K&N filters apparently has no idea how to tune properly for pods, or is using a poorly designed jet kit. I have nearly 80 bhp on a DynoJet dyno off the back wheel of my Zephyr 550 using pods, a WiseCo big bore kit, my own 5 degree ignition advancer, and a blueprinted bottom end. It's stone reliable, too. Also, I've never seen nor heard of anodized calipers on any stock motorcycle. I've seen various ceramic finishes, various paint finishes, and chrome, but never anodized. I am certain your brake cleaner warned you to test the cleaner on a non-visible painted area before dousing a part with it, because the new formulations will often attack paint, just like nail polish remover. Probably should have heeded that warning.
| 1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) -=- 1986 Kawa Ninja 250 (stolen) | | The Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook -=- http://tinyurl.com/297abo |
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Rank: n00b
Groups: Member
Joined: 8/6/2009
Posts: 8
Location: USA
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naw man, this clean new looking 5000 mile cherry cost me a bit more more than 600 bucks, Ive put 600 bucks into it in suspension, tires (good ones) and HH brake pads. the original test ride revealed a strangled motor with pee poor suspension, which seemed acceptable at the time...figured it couldnt be too hard to fix. it has not been quite that easy.
"Whoever told you the bike runs poorly with individual K&N filters apparently has no idea how to tune properly for pods, or is using a poorly designed jet kit. I have nearly 80 bhp on a DynoJet dyno off the back wheel of my Zephyr 550 using pods, a WiseCo big bore kit, my own 5 degree ignition advancer, and a blueprinted bottom end. It's stone reliable, too."
this is the info i've been looking for. every other internet "authority" keeps telling me why I wouldnt want more horsepower or that this bike has "nice mid range" that would be ruined by engine mods or that i wouldn't be able to tune the thing. if I wanted nice mid range i'd ride a SV650....which has considerably nicer midrange. Thanks for the motor info. it's the 1st thing ive seen that gives me hope.
I'd like to assume such a new looking low mile bike would have good bearings all around. i'd be interested in your opinion on the stock clutch though....and what you have done with the suspension
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Rank: Administrator
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Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 222
Location: Catskill Mtns.
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One thing I have found is that the bike is pretty sensitive to the rear wheel being misaligned, and you can't necessarily count on the factory marks on the adjusters to still be accurate after all these years (or possibly even from the factory in some cases). Using the string method to check alignment against the swingarm pivot bolt and nut is the only way to be sure. Another thing I have seen is that these bikes are very sensitive to twisting the front end and binding up the front suspension. I think you will find that these things may help a lot with the handling issues. I've tried the BT-45s on my Zephyr, and although I now favor the Sport Demon tires, I recall them being reasonably stable. They are a bit more skittish than many other boas ply tires because they are very triangular in profile. This helps you turn in quickly and have a nice big contact patch when leaned over, but makes the bike feel skittish on the street when the tires are new. For suspension I had Aftershocks in Palo Alto, CA rework the stock shocks and front valving and fork spring. He cut down the stock spring to give a straight rate that was in line with my weight, and then adjusted the valving to suit me better (more rebound, somewhat more compression, and I think a lower oil level so the "air shock" factor did not increase the spring rate too much under dive). In the rear, he fixed the rebound damping problem and revalved to suit with a fresh charge of nitrogen. For street use, the setup is beautiful, although it's a little soft for the track. And at 120 lbs., I could not get a Race Tech spring set for the front that was light enough a spring rate to suit my weight on the bike. If the pods breathe well (NOT the Emgo paper pods, but real oiled cotton filters from BMC or K&N), you should get more power everywhere if the jetting is done right. Using an aftermarket pipe makes a huge difference, but the power curve's shape will be the same with the stock exhaust as well. I saw more power everywhere, but the biggest change was above 7k rpm, with the power peak moving substantially up from its stock location. Granted, I had a Supertrapp pipe on and was jetted properly when I started testing pods instead of an airbox; removing the airbox without near good jetting will ruin your power output, and despite what some folks may say, every bike I know needs a different needle taper for pods than it needs for a stock airbox. As to the clutch I have encountered one other bike with that noise issue, but never looked very closely at it before the bike went away. I do fine with grooving my steels for a more progressive engagement with resistance to glazing, and the ability to break up glazing that has already occurred. I have seen no slipppage with the stock clutch, even with my motor being built, and the stock springs seem fine. I wonder if you have wear on the fingers on the clutch basket? That would be my first suspicion. The bottom end of the Zephyr was used almost verbatim in the Ninja 600R, so we know it can take at least 80 bhp in stock trim without reliability issues. I'd say the problems are not necessarily with the bike's design, but are more likely to be because of wear or poor repair in the past.
| 1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) -=- 1986 Kawa Ninja 250 (stolen) | | The Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook -=- http://tinyurl.com/297abo |
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Rank: n00b
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Joined: 8/6/2009
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"I wonder if you have wear on the fingers on the clutch basket? That would be my first suspicion."
my thought as well. the clutch pull seems very light as if the springs were sacked out or too light to begin with. my experience makes me think either a very fat person riding or very abusve person or very weak springs is what grooves the fingers...i prefer the weak spring theory because it doesnt make the previous owner a liar.
you used a dynojet stage three kit i'm assuming?
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Rank: n00b
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Joined: 8/6/2009
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also , i have that motion pro tool that clamps to the rear sprocket to align the rear wheel.
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Rank: MSF graduate
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/7/2008
Posts: 45
Location: Delaware Ohio
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azraphale wrote:
Whoever told you the bike runs poorly with individual K&N filters apparently has no idea how to tune properly for pods, or is using a poorly designed jet kit. I have nearly 80 bhp on a DynoJet dyno off the back wheel of my Zephyr 550 using pods, a WiseCo big bore kit, my own 5 degree ignition advancer, and a blueprinted bottom end. It's stone reliable, too.
I had told him that, based on what I got from email where you had told me about the bike and the carb size along with cam issues. The caveat seemed to be if one modifies one should be ready for problems, it ain't gonna be easy. You talked about the carbs being larger than necessary causing breathing issues. Also mentioned was the deterioration of the lower range power. Now you're saying pods could be used if properly jetted? What is properly jetted? Will the regular dyno jet kit work or are we talking hours tearing down with throttle chops like going racing? In other words, what jet needle number will work, is the needle jet interchangable and there a different number needle jet preferred, and what general main jet is called for. You are confusing me - a lot. How about a realistic "article" about reasonable modifications for the street? By the way, as soon as I get the tensioners in and finish some I will send one.
Mark - klx678 Delaware Ohio 1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 550 mostly stock - if I wanted faster I'd have bought faster 1995 Kawasaki KLX650 with a big bore Vulcan piston 678cc, a pipe, and Dial-A-Jet 1978 Yamaha SR500 eventually to be a 60's style flattrack look street tracker 1967or so Bultaco M27 Sherpa T - first bike I bought, 1971.
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Rank: Administrator
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Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 222
Location: Catskill Mtns.
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Okay, let's see if I can sort through this and give something coherent in terms of a reply. :) I have not seen the clutch springs get soft on a Kawasaki 550, although I certainly have seen them get "soft" enough to allow clutch slip and glazing. With a new clutch cable, the lever effort is not terribly high, cetrainly better than most bikes made before about 1985 or so. Still, I would get a clutch cover gasket and pull the cover, and check the springs for proper length and spring tension. I think at one point I shimmed a set of stock springs a little bit to get more pre-load, which helped prevent slippage with springs that were not brand new and more power than stock. There are also aftermarket springs that are stiffer than stock, from Vesrah IIRC; you may wish to get a set of those if you find the stock springs are not up to the task and you don't mind the heavier clutch pull. No, I never use DynoJet kits, especially Stage 3 kits. Their dynos cannot measure part-load power at all accurately, and therefore their jet kits usually have lousy response with pod filters at part throttle or lower engine speeds. This is what has led to the old wives' tale that pods ruin your midrange power. I only use Factory Pro jet kits, as they were developed on an eddy current dyno to improve power under all engine load/speed conditions. As to my comments from some time ago about midrange power on modified motors, there is definitely a rich spot with pods and a big bore kit with aftermarket exhaust, especially if you put in cams with more overlap (late GPz cams or most any aftermarket cams). However, on a stock motor, even though power is not 100% even across the rev range, the bike will still make more power than stock through the midrange and at part throttle (assuming here a stock motor and carbs, pods, aftermarket exhaust and proper jetting). I think perhaps I was unclear in describing the behavior of my own bike, which at the time had big aftermarket cams, vs. the potential for best power without intake reversion. And once I get the Bassani installed properly on my bike, I should be able eliminate a lot of the problem because of the significant anti-reversion protection built into the Bassani design. We'll see what happens once I get that bike back on the road. Proper jetting is the best possible jetting that achieves power gains through more of the rev range and engine load variables as is possible. As noted previously, DynoJet jet kits are not tested over some large chunks of the load/speed matrix, due to shortcomings in their dyno design, and therefore they suffer power-wise when compared to Factory Pro kits, especially their Stage 3 kits. I hope this clears up some of the confusion about things. I would have to read the actual posts on the Zone regarding midrange power to be able to explain exactly what I meant; when the combination of parts in the motor was less than optimal I did end up making less power in the midrange than stock with a Stage 1 jet kit and a pipe; however, I was able to get rid of a lot of that by going back to stock cams and cam timing. I believe that the setup I was running before replacing my Supertrapp with the Bassani was making more power through the midrange than stock, IIRC. I should have some dyno charts around here someplace...
| 1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) -=- 1986 Kawa Ninja 250 (stolen) | | The Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook -=- http://tinyurl.com/297abo |
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Rank: Administrator
Groups: Administration
Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 222
Location: Catskill Mtns.
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Oh, and per your request for specific settings to use, you would really need a four-gas analyzer and a dyno that could measure part-throttle power at one engine speed accurately (an eddy current dyno, IOW) and some time in order to get your jetting as close to optimal as possible in the shortest time. Plug chops won't necessarily tell you anything unless you know for a fact that you have the best possible heat range installed, and that can really only be determined by measuring power output and experience. You can duplicate the visible results of changing jetting when doing "plug chops" by changing the heat range of the plug as well, so separating those factors and comparing different combinations that show the same on the plug but make different power on the dyno can't be done using just the eyeball. As you change a bike more and more from the stock configuration, you are adding more and more variables to the equation. Tuhs there is not a magic bullet parts list that is guaranteed to work best on a given bike with some combination of mods that may or may not have been tested during development of the jet kit. Typically, if you use the same carbs, cylinder head, intake manifolds, and cam profile and timing, you will only need one needle profile to cover your bases. If you look at a Stage 1 vs. a Stage 3 jet kit, you'll see the stage 1 has a lot fewer different main jet options over a smaller range, whereas the Stage 3 kit has more mains over a much wider range. That's because the airbox's intake restriction was the limiting factor in making power over much of the load/speed matrix. Change out the intake restriction by installing pods, and you will need not only a wider range of main jets to cover different exhaust options, but a different needle taper for the changed curve in intake flow and vacuum at a given load/speed matrix location. The more variables you change, the less likely you will be to be able to just throw some parts at the carbs and get them "pretty close" without some way to accurately measure the changes in power delivery each alteration of, say, needle taper will provide for you. This is one of the reasons I switched back to stock cams, because I wasn't getting much extra power below redline, but my midrange was being hurt by the greater overlap. The stock cams actually ended up making more power for me due to decreased overlap. If I had some other kind of intake restriction (like the smaller GPz carbs), then the extra overlap would be helpful at higher engine speeds especially. Without anything to prevent reversion through the intakes, though, the cams were too much and allowed a lot of reversion into the intake tract when running, especially below about 8k rpm.
| 1990 Kawasaki Zephyr 615 (Daphne) -=- 1986 Kawa Ninja 250 (stolen) | | The Motorcycle Fuel Injection Handbook -=- http://tinyurl.com/297abo |
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Rank: n00b
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Joined: 8/6/2009
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Location: USA
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hahaha I love this bike now. shoulda taken it to the track right away...new fork springs, Ikons and being sick of track riding a fat ass 04' VFR ...will change yer whole perspective. awsome on the track except the fork chatters in sweepers. gona go from 15 wt fork oil to 10 wt next time. hahaha I love this bike now. shoulda taken it to the track right away...new fork springs, Ikons and being sick of track riding a fat ass 04' VFR ...will change yer whole perspective. awsome on the track except the fork chatters in sweepers. gona go from 15 wt fork oil to 10 wt next time. http://www.gron4.com/2010/051910/adv/honred2/
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